Owen Maroney: Is there a unique thermal entropy?
TLDRThe speaker explores the concept of thermal entropy in statistical mechanics and phenomenological thermodynamics, challenging the notion of a globally unique thermodynamic entropy. They argue that understanding thermodynamics more broadly supports the idea of multiple thermal entropy functions. The talk delves into the implications of reversibility, fluctuations, and statistical independence on entropy, suggesting that entropy functions can be diverse yet objective, reflecting different physical constraints and optimization criteria.
Takeaways
- π The talk explores the concept of thermal entropy and challenges the idea of a globally unique thermodynamic entropy, suggesting that multiple entropy functions can exist within statistical mechanics and phenomenological thermodynamics.
- π€ The speaker agrees with a point made by 'Rob' about the problems arising from the expectation of a total ordering of states in statistical mechanics, hinting at the complexity of system analysis when such orderings are not present.
- π The presentation argues that understanding phenomenological thermodynamics more broadly could alleviate the need for a single, unique thermodynamic entropy, indicating that the existence of multiple entropy functions is not an issue.
- π§ The speaker uses the principle theory approach of thermodynamics, which is based on 19th-century thermal analysis, to discuss the concept of entropy without relying on the idea of quasi-static processes or thermal equilibrium.
- π The existence of entropy functions is tied to the condition that the integral of a path-dependent quantity over any closed path is less than or equal to zero, which allows for the possibility of a family of entropy functions rather than a single unique one.
- π Reversibility in thermodynamic processes can narrow down the family of entropy functions to a single function, up to an additive constant, showing the importance of reversible processes in defining entropy uniquely.
- π¬ The talk delves into the mathematics of state spaces and paths, illustrating how entropy functions can be defined and how different paths can lead to different entropy calculations, emphasizing the path-dependence of thermodynamic quantities.
- π‘οΈ The concept of thermal fluctuations is introduced as a way to generalize the second law of thermodynamics, allowing for the possibility of fluctuations and leading to a family of fluctuation-based entropy functions.
- π The speaker discusses the implications of thermal fluctuations for the understanding of entropy, suggesting that fluctuations do not destroy the concept of entropy but rather modify it, leading to a broader family of entropy functions.
- π The idea of 'adiabatic availability' is introduced as a measure of the maximum amount of energy that can be extracted from a system without violating the second law of thermodynamics, highlighting an alternative approach to understanding energy conversion.
- π€ The quantum mechanical perspective is also considered, discussing how the principles of quantum mechanics can be applied to understand thermal states and the extraction of work from systems, showing a connection between quantum mechanics and thermodynamics.
Q & A
What is the main topic of the talk?
-The main topic of the talk is the concept of thermal entropy and the argument against the need for a globally unique thermodynamic entropy in statistical mechanics and phenomenological thermodynamics.
What is the speaker's stance on the total ordering of things in a single function?
-The speaker agrees with Rob's point that being addicted to having a total ordering of things in a single function has been a real problem in the analysis of statistical mechanics.
Why does the speaker argue against the idea of a globally unique thermodynamic entropy?
-The speaker argues that if we understand phenomenological thermodynamics better, we should have been comfortable with the idea of not having a globally unique thermodynamic entropy, as families of thermal entropy functions can arise similarly in both statistical mechanics and phenomenological thermodynamics.
What is the purpose of discussing phenomenological thermodynamics in the talk?
-The purpose of discussing phenomenological thermodynamics is to show that many ideas in statistical mechanics come from this principal theory and that analyzing it better can help in understanding what's going on in statistical mechanics.
What is the significance of the Carnot engine in the talk?
-The Carnot engine is significant in the talk as it is used to illustrate the various statements of the second law of thermodynamics and to show the equivalence between these statements.
What does the speaker mean by 'reversibility' in the context of thermodynamics?
-In the context of thermodynamics, 'reversibility' refers to processes that can occur in a system such that the system can be returned to its initial state without any net change in the surroundings, which helps in narrowing down the family of entropy functions to a single function up to an additive constant.
What is the role of fluctuations in the speaker's discussion of thermodynamics?
-Fluctuations play a crucial role in the speaker's discussion as they are considered in the generalization of the second law of thermodynamics to account for the possibility of random variations in thermodynamic properties.
What is the concept of 'adiabatic availability' mentioned in the talk?
-Adiabatic availability is a concept that refers to the maximum amount of energy that can be extracted from a system under adiabatic conditions, where no heat is exchanged with the surroundings.
How does the speaker address the issue of non-equilibrium systems in thermodynamics?
-The speaker addresses non-equilibrium systems by discussing the possibility of defining entropies for such systems and the challenges in preparing non-equilibrium systems and measuring their properties for cyclic processes.
What assumptions does the speaker identify as potentially questionable in the context of statistical mechanics?
-The speaker identifies several assumptions as potentially questionable, including unitary evolution, negligible variation interaction, statistical independence between initial systems, and the assumption of thermal systems being in canonical states.
Outlines
π Rethinking Entropy and Statistical Mechanics
The speaker begins by challenging the traditional view of entropy as a unique, objective feature of an individual system. They argue that the quest for a globally unique thermodynamic entropy is misguided and that a better understanding of phenomenological thermodynamics could have led to a more comfortable acceptance of multiple thermal entropy functions. The speaker plans to show that the reasons for having such families of thermal entropy functions in statistical mechanics are similar to those in phenomenological thermodynamics, emphasizing the importance of revisiting 19th-century thermal analysis.
π§ The Mechanics of Thermodynamic Entropy
This paragraph delves into the mathematical foundation of thermodynamics, discussing the conditions under which an entropy function can exist. It explains that for any two states in a state space, if a certain quantity is path-dependent and changes by a finite amount, then an entropy function exists. The speaker further explores the implications of reversibility in processes, stating that reversible cycles can lead to a unique entropy function, while irreversible cycles result in a family of such functions. The emphasis is on understanding the principles of thermodynamics without relying on quasi-static processes or thermal equilibrium.
π Exploring Thermodynamic Fluctuations
The speaker introduces the concept of thermodynamic fluctuations, suggesting that the traditional statements of the second law of thermodynamics may not fully account for these fluctuations. They propose a generalization of the second law that includes the possibility of fluctuations, leading to a principal theory of thermal fluctuations. This approach allows for the derivation of a single unified form for fluctuation laws, which can be applied to various scenarios, including heat pumps and Carnot engines, and results in a relationship between the efficiency of energy transfer and the temperatures involved.
π‘οΈ Entropy and Temperature Relations in Fluctuations
Building on the concept of fluctuations, the speaker discusses the relationship between entropy, temperature, and the likelihood of fluctuations. They propose that the probability of fluctuations depends on the ratio of temperatures, leading to a specific form of the entropy function. The speaker also addresses the possibility of large fluctuations and the role of Boltzmann's constant in this context, highlighting the puzzling nature of its physical significance and the challenges in determining the exact form of the entropy function in the presence of fluctuations.
π§ Reversibility and the Uniqueness of Entropy Functions
The paragraph explores the implications of reversibility on the uniqueness of entropy functions. While reversibility in processes can lead to a unique fluctuation-free thermodynamic entropy function, the presence of fluctuations does not necessarily yield a globally unique entropy function. The speaker argues that additional conditions are required to achieve uniqueness, such as the assumption of maximal fluctuations between all pairs of states. However, this assumption is considered strong and potentially unjustified.
π The Role of Fluctuations in Entropy and Thermodynamics
The speaker discusses the impact of fluctuations on the concept of entropy, suggesting that incorporating fluctuations into phenomenological thermodynamics can lead to a family of entropy functions rather than a single unique function. They propose a method to combine reliable paths with fluctuations to maintain the concept of entropy, even in the presence of irreversibility and fluctuations. The speaker emphasizes that this approach does not invalidate the understanding of entropy or the second law of thermodynamics, even for non-equilibrium systems.
π Quantum Mechanics and Thermodynamic Entropy
Shifting the focus to quantum mechanics, the speaker explores the application of thermodynamic principles to quantum systems. They introduce the concept of adiabatic availability and discuss the implications of mechanical work in quantum systems. The speaker also addresses the challenges of applying Hamiltonian dynamics to time-variable systems and the need to consider the interaction between systems in the context of quantum thermodynamics.
π Adiabatic Availability and Quantum Thermodynamics
This paragraph delves into the concept of adiabatic availability in quantum thermodynamics, contrasting it with the Gibbs fine-grained entropy. The speaker discusses the conditions under which energy can be extracted from a system while preserving certain properties, highlighting the difference between Hamiltonian dynamics and unitary evolution. They also touch upon the historical development of these concepts and their significance in understanding quantum thermodynamic processes.
π‘οΈ Thermal States and the Foundations of Statistical Mechanics
The speaker proposes a foundation for statistical mechanics and thermal physics, starting with the identification of thermal states based on their passive properties. They argue that thermal states should not exchange heat on average when in contact and that these states are passive. The speaker also discusses the implications of considering multiple systems at the same temperature and the role of passivity in defining thermal states without relying on notions of equilibrium.
π§ Entropy Functions in Statistical Mechanics
The speaker discusses the derivation of entropy functions in statistical mechanics, emphasizing that these functions can be defined without assuming thermal equilibrium or the thermodynamic limit. They highlight the importance of understanding the assumptions behind the derivation of these functions and the conditions under which they hold. The speaker also addresses the potential issues with certain assumptions, such as unitary evolution and the negligible variation interaction engine.
π Challenges and Assumptions in Thermodynamic Entropy
In this paragraph, the speaker reflects on the various assumptions made in the analysis of thermodynamic entropy, such as reversibility, constant interaction, and statistical independence. They question the validity of these assumptions in different contexts and suggest alternative approaches, such as passivism or considering different optimization criteria. The speaker also discusses the implications of these assumptions for the understanding of entropy and the development of statistical mechanics.
π Entropy as a Constraint on Energy Conversion
The speaker concludes by emphasizing that entropy is an expression of constraints on the conversion of heat into work, derived from cyclic conditions. They argue that these constraints yield families of functions of state, which can be considered objective physical properties. The speaker also discusses the role of reversibility, fluctuations, and statistical dependence in generating these families of entropy functions and the importance of being open to multiple entropy functions.
π€ Open Questions in Thermodynamics and Entropy
The speaker acknowledges the open questions and challenges in understanding thermodynamics and entropy, particularly in the context of quantum mechanics. They discuss the potential issues with achieving reversible processes and the implications of quantum effects on traditional thermodynamic assumptions. The speaker also touches upon the importance of considering different optimization criteria and the potential for alternative extensive entropies in various physical scenarios.
π The Complexity of Entropy and Equilibrium
In the final paragraph, the speaker highlights the complexity of understanding entropy and the process of reaching equilibrium in different physical systems. They discuss the potential impact of long-range correlations, memories, and the role of practical choices in defining entropy functions. The speaker also emphasizes the importance of questioning assumptions and exploring alternative approaches in the study of thermodynamics and statistical mechanics.
Mindmap
Keywords
π‘Thermal Entropy
π‘Statistical Mechanics
π‘Phenomenological Thermodynamics
π‘Reversible Processes
π‘Irreversible Cycles
π‘Fluctuations
π‘Adiabatic Availability
π‘Quantum Mechanics
π‘Canonical Distribution
π‘Passive States
π‘Entropy Function
Highlights
The speaker agrees with a point made by 'Rob' about the problem of requiring a total ordering in a single function to define a state space, challenging the traditional view of entropy in statistical mechanics.
The talk argues against the necessity of a globally unique thermodynamic entropy, suggesting that understanding phenomenological thermodynamics could alleviate this issue.
Phenomenological thermodynamics is contrasted with statistical mechanics, with the former being a principal theory and the latter a constructive theory.
The existence of an entropy function is discussed, highlighting that it can be path-dependent and does not necessarily follow from state space conditions alone.
The concept of adiabatic availability is introduced as a measure of energy extractable from a system without violating the second law of thermodynamics.
The speaker presents a quantum mechanical approach to thermodynamics, discussing the implications of unitary evolution and the role of Hamiltonians in defining work.
The idea that thermal states must be passive states is proposed, meaning they have the same eigenvalues but with higher energy states having lower probabilities.
The talk suggests that the Gibbs entropy and the Boltzmann entropy may represent different physical properties rather than contradicting each other.
The possibility of multiple entropy functions is explored, challenging the traditional assumption of a single, globally unique entropy function.
The impact of fluctuations on the concept of entropy is examined, questioning whether fluctuations destroy or modify the understanding of entropy.
The speaker discusses the potential for a statistical mixture of thermodynamic states and the implications for the second law of thermodynamics.
The concept of thermal fluctuations is integrated into phenomenological thermodynamics, leading to a generalized form of the second law.
The talk addresses the assumptions made in deriving entropy functions, such as unitary evolution and negligible variation interaction, questioning their validity.
The potential for non-extensive entropy functions is introduced, suggesting that different optimization criteria could lead to different entropy measures.
The speaker concludes by emphasizing that entropy is an expression of constraints on energy conversion and that multiple entropy functions can coexist.
The importance of understanding the assumptions behind entropy calculations is highlighted, urging a reevaluation of traditional views in statistical mechanics.
The talk suggests that the foundations of statistical mechanics can be reexamined through the lens of phenomenological thermodynamics, offering new perspectives on entropy.
Transcripts
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