Lies, Damned Lies, and Salary Statistics | LSAT Demon Daily, Ep. 133
TLDRIn this episode of the 'LSATdemon Daily' podcast, hosts Ben Olson and Nathan Fox discuss an email from Manny, who asks about the impact of a chart ranking law schools by median salary on their opinions regarding the value of attending certain law schools. The hosts delve into the nuances of median salaries, highlighting the difference between median, mode, and mean. They express skepticism about the usefulness of median salary data without additional context, such as employment rates and the proportion of graduates entering private versus public sectors. The discussion also touches on the high demand for attorneys, the challenges of law school admissions, and the harsh realities of the legal profession, including the burnout rate and the difficulty of securing high-paying jobs in big law firms. The hosts advise Manny and other prospective law students to apply broadly to avoid having to make extreme decisions between full-ride offers and high-cost options, emphasizing the importance of considering multiple factors beyond just starting salaries.
Takeaways
- 📊 The podcast discusses a chart ranking law schools by median salary in the private and public sectors, emphasizing the limitations of median salary as an indicator without additional context.
- 💰 The median salary for many law schools is reported as $180,000 for private sector jobs, but this figure can be misleading without knowing the proportion of graduates who actually secure such high-paying positions.
- 🎓 Ben and Nathan, the podcast hosts, argue that the prestige and ranking of a law school play a significant role in the likelihood of graduates securing high-paying jobs, with more opportunities at more prestigious institutions.
- 📉 The discussion highlights that the median salary for public sector jobs can be significantly lower, with certain schools, like Golden Gate University, appearing at the top of the list due to a small number of high earners.
- 🤔 The hosts express skepticism about the usefulness of median salary data without accompanying employment rates and the distribution of graduates across different sectors.
- 📉 They also point out that the mode (most common number) and mean (arithmetic average) are different statistical measures that could provide additional insights into salary distributions.
- 🚫 The podcast warns against using median salary figures in isolation, as they do not account for the number of unemployed graduates or those in lower-paying jobs.
- 🤔 The decision between accepting a full scholarship at a lower-ranked school versus paying full price at a higher-ranked school is questioned, with the hosts suggesting that students should aim for a broader range of applications.
- 📈 The importance of considering employment rates and the overall job market for lawyers is discussed, as demand for attorneys may be increasing, leading to higher starting salaries and more opportunities.
- 😟 The harsh realities of the legal profession are mentioned, including the high attrition rate, long hours, and the struggle to repay law school debt on lower salaries.
- ❓ The hosts encourage listeners to think critically about the value of a law school education, the job prospects upon graduation, and the potential to repay significant student loans.
Q & A
What is the main topic of discussion in the podcast?
-The main topic of discussion is the evaluation of law school rankings based on median salaries in the private and public sectors, and how this data might influence decisions regarding law school attendance and associated costs.
What is the confusion between median, mode, and mean that the hosts clarify?
-The hosts clarify that the median is the middle number in a sorted list of numbers, the mode is the most common number, and the mean is the arithmetic average of all numbers in a list.
Why do the hosts believe the median salary data might be misleading?
-The hosts believe the median salary data might be misleading because it does not account for the number of graduates who went into private practice, nor does it include the mean salary which could provide a more comprehensive picture.
What is the significance of the number 180,000 in the discussion?
-The number 180,000 is significant because it is the median starting salary for many law schools' graduates who enter private practice, indicating that more than 50% of the graduates from these schools are making this amount.
Why do the hosts argue that the ranking by median salary is not very useful?
-The hosts argue that the ranking by median salary is not very useful because it does not consider the employment rates in different sectors, the percentage of unemployed graduates, and the overall job market conditions.
What advice do the hosts give to someone deciding between attending Northeastern on a full ride versus Georgetown at full price?
-The hosts advise against making such a decision without considering a broader range of options and applying to multiple law schools to increase the chances of receiving scholarships or financial aid.
What is the implication of the discussion about the job market for attorneys?
-The implication is that despite a high demand for attorneys, the job market is competitive and stressful, leading to high attrition rates, and that prospective law students should be cautious about the long-term prospects and financial implications of their career choice.
Why do the hosts express skepticism about the value of certain law schools ranked highly by median public sector salary?
-The hosts express skepticism because a high median salary in the public sector could be due to a small number of graduates securing high-paying jobs, which may not be representative of the majority of graduates from those schools.
What is the importance of considering employment rates in addition to salary figures?
-Employment rates are important because they provide context on how many graduates from a law school are actually finding jobs in their desired sector, which is crucial information for prospective students evaluating the return on investment of their law school choice.
How do the hosts feel about the practice of 'slice and dice' statistics in the context of law school rankings?
-The hosts are critical of the practice, as it can lead to misleading conclusions about the quality and value of a law school's education based on incomplete or narrowly focused data.
What is the hosts' perspective on the likelihood of a successful career in big law for graduates?
-The hosts suggest that the odds of a successful and long-term career in big law are low, with many factors such as job burnout, high debt, and competitive job placement influencing the sustainability of such a career path.
Outlines
📊 Law School Rankings and Median Salaries
The founders of lsatdemon.com, Ben Olson and Nathan Fox, discuss an email from Manny concerning a chart ranking law schools by median salary in the private and public sectors. They critique the usefulness of median salary data without context on employment rates and the proportion of graduates entering each sector. They also touch on the high starting salaries in big law firms and how these can skew perceptions of a school's value.
💼 Median Salary vs. Employment Data
The discussion continues with an emphasis on the limitations of median salary figures without accompanying employment data. The speakers argue that knowing how many graduates enter private practice versus public service is crucial for a balanced assessment. They also express skepticism about the high median salaries reported by certain schools, suggesting that these figures may not reflect the broader employment outcomes for graduates.
🎓 Decision-Making Between Full Ride and High Debt
The conversation addresses Manny's query about choosing between a full scholarship at Northeastern University and paying full price at Georgetown University. They advise against making such a decision without a broader application strategy and emphasize the importance of considering employment rates and job prospects in addition to salary figures. They also discuss the challenges of entering and sustaining a career in big law firms, highlighting the risks of high student debt.
🤔 Public vs. Private Sector Job Prospects
The final paragraph delves into the job prospects for law school graduates in the public sector, suggesting that competition for prestigious public interest jobs can lead to lower salaries. They contrast this with the perception of high-paying private sector jobs, noting the social implications and the reality that many graduates may not secure such positions. The speakers conclude by urging caution and thorough research before committing to law school.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡LSAT
💡Law School Rankings
💡Median Salary
💡Private Sector
💡Public Sector
💡Big Law Firms
💡Employment Rates
💡Debt
💡Full Ride
💡Sticker Price
💡Burnout
Highlights
Ben Olson and Nathan Fox discuss the implications of a chart ranking law schools by median salary in the private and public sectors.
Manny's email questions whether the chart changes opinions on the value of paying for law school.
The chart is from a public legal resource and ranks 200 law schools.
Law schools can be ranked by median salary in either the private or public sector.
Ben and Nathan discuss the high first-year associate salaries in big law firms, which are often standardized.
They debate the meaning of median, mode, and mean in the context of the salary data.
Median salary figures may not reflect the majority of graduates' outcomes due to the way data is sliced.
The percentage of graduates going into private practice is crucial for understanding the median salary figures.
Ben and Nathan argue that median salary data alone is almost useless without additional context.
They discuss the prestige and employment rates of various law schools, including Stanford, Yale, and Howard University.
The discussion highlights the potential for misleading data when only median salaries are considered.
Golden Gate University Law School ranks high for median public sector salary, but this may not reflect overall prestige or employment rates.
Manny's dilemma of choosing between a full ride at Northeastern and paying full price at Georgetown is discussed.
The hosts advise against making such a decision without a broader application strategy.
They emphasize the importance of considering employment rates and not just median salaries when evaluating law schools.
Ben shares anecdotal evidence from a friend about the high demand for attorneys and the burnout rate in the legal profession.
The conversation concludes with a cautionary note about the risks and realities of entering the legal profession.
Transcripts
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