The Trump movement is turning America fascist w/Jeff Sharlet | The Chris Hedges Report

The Real News Network Podcasts

27 Oct 202350:06

EducationalLearning

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TLDRIn this compelling interview, author Jeff Sharlet discusses his new book 'Undertow: Scenes from a Slow Civil War,' exploring the rise of Christian nationalism and its fusion with fascism and the far right in the United States. Sharlet, who has spent two decades investigating these movements, warns of the dangers of dismissing the 'American fascism' movement, highlighting its evolution from the prosperity gospel to a darker, conspiratorial narrative. He emphasizes the importance of understanding this as an existential threat to democracy and the need for a sustained resistance.

Takeaways

📚 Jeff Sharlet's new book, 'Undertow: Scenes from a Slow Civil War', explores the rise of Christian nationalism and its intersection with fascism and the far-right in the United States.
🔄 Sharlet discusses the evolution of Trump's political rallies, from the prosperity gospel in 2016 to a darker, more violent rhetoric by 2020, reflecting a shift in the political landscape.
🎭 The transcript highlights the theatrical nature of Trump's rallies, where performance and spectacle are used to stir emotions and create a sense of collective identity among supporters.
🔮 The conversation touches on the role of conspiracy theories in shaping the beliefs of Trump supporters, with Sharlet noting how Trump himself seemed to become more engrossed in these narratives over time.
⚔️ The concept of 'martyrs' is explored, with Ashli Babbitt's death on January 6th being used to galvanize support and initiate followers into a mindset of violence and resistance.
🤝 The transcript addresses the idea that modern American fascism is different from historical precedents, noting that it is more inclusive in terms of race but unified by a sense of white victimization.
🏛️ Sharlet and the interviewer discuss the slow institutionalization of violence and the potential for a 'slow civil war', emphasizing that the threat of fascism is not just about armed conflict but also about the erosion of democratic norms.
👥 The role of the Christian right in infiltrating and influencing institutions like the military and law enforcement is mentioned, indicating a deeper penetration of extremist ideologies within societal structures.
🚨 The transcript raises concerns about the potential for violence in the aftermath of events like the overturning of Roe v. Wade, suggesting that the threat of violence is ever-present and could escalate.
💡 Sharlet emphasizes the importance of not dismissing the ideas of the far-right as 'kooky', arguing that even strange theories can coalesce into a powerful and dangerous movement.
🌟 The book ends with a reflection on the need for ongoing struggle against fascism, regardless of immediate victories or defeats, underlining the importance of perseverance in the face of adversity.

Q & A

What is the main theme of Jeff Sharlet's new book 'Undertow: Scenes from a Slow Civil War'?
-The main theme of Jeff Sharlet's book is the exploration of the intersection of extreme Christian nationalism, which he equates to Christian fascism, and the far right in the United States, particularly focusing on how these elements have coalesced around the Trump-led Republican Party.
How does Sharlet describe the evolution of Trump's appeal to his supporters during his first and second presidential runs?
-During his first run, Trump's appeal was tied to the Prosperity Gospel, showcasing his wealth and success as a sign of divine blessing. In his second run, the narrative became darker, with Trump trafficking in conspiracy theories and creating a sense of an elect group with secret knowledge, akin to a modernized Americanized form of Gnosticism.
What is the Prosperity Gospel as mentioned in the script, and how did Trump initially use it?
-The Prosperity Gospel is a religious belief that financial blessing and physical well-being are the will of God and will come to those who have faith. Trump used this by showcasing his wealth and success, suggesting that by supporting him, his followers could partake in his blessings.
How does Sharlet connect the dots between Trump's rhetoric and the aesthetics of violence?
-Sharlet observes that Trump's rhetoric, especially during his second run, included vivid descriptions of violence, such as decapitations and disembowelment. This, Sharlet argues, is a form of ecstatic, lustful violence that appeals to the emotional needs of his supporters and is a hallmark of fascist movements.
What role do martyrs play in the narrative that Sharlet discusses in relation to Trumpism?
-Martyrs, such as Ashli Babbitt, who was killed during the January 6th Capitol insurrection, are used to initiate followers into campaigns of violence. They serve as symbols of innocence and purity, rallying the movement around a shared sense of victimization and the need for retribution.
How does Sharlet view the current state of American democracy in relation to the rise of Christian fascism?
-Sharlet views the rise of Christian fascism as an existential threat to the remaining elements of American democracy, which he describes as 'anemic.' He implores readers to take the threat seriously and not to dismiss it due to its seemingly absurd qualities.
What is the significance of the 'slow civil war' mentioned in the script, and how does it relate to the current political climate in the United States?
-The 'slow civil war' refers to the gradual institutionalization of violence and the increasing polarization in American society. It signifies the ongoing tension and potential for escalation, without the immediate, overt conflict typically associated with civil war.
What is the role of the military in Sharlet's analysis of the current situation?
-Sharlet discusses the potential fragmentation within the military due to the influence of Christian right organizations and the possibility of low-level mutinies against orders, such as vaccination mandates, indicating a growing divide that could have significant implications.
How does Sharlet describe the use of theater and performance in Trump's rallies?
-Sharlet notes that Trump's rallies often feature theatrical performances, such as reenactments of phone calls or violent scenarios, which serve to energize the crowd and create a sense of collective meaning-making that is submissive to Trump's leadership.
What does Sharlet suggest as the moral imperative for those who oppose the rise of Christian fascism in the United States?
-Sharlet suggests that the moral imperative is to continue the struggle against Christian fascism, regardless of whether victory is imminent or assured. He emphasizes the importance of ongoing resistance and the recognition that the struggle is a long-term endeavor.
How does Sharlet's book end, and what message does he convey through this conclusion?
-Sharlet's book ends with a reference to Paul Robeson and a historical incident where Robeson was attacked by a mob, symbolizing the resistance against fascism. The message conveyed is that even in the face of adversity, the struggle against oppressive ideologies must continue.

Outlines

00:00

📚 Jeff Sharlet's Exploration of Christian Fascism

Jeff Sharlet discusses his two-decade journey covering the convergence of extreme Christian nationalism and far-right ideologies, which he labels as Christian fascism. His new book, 'Undertow: Scenes from a Slow Civil War', offers a critical view of the United States' descent into a Christianized fascist state under the influence of the Trump-led Republican Party. Sharlet emphasizes the importance of recognizing the threat posed by Christian fascists to democracy and highlights the role of conspiracy theories and the aesthetic of violence inherent in fascist movements.

05:06

🎤 Trump's Evolution from Prosperity Gospel to Darker Rhetoric

The conversation delves into the evolution of Trump's rhetoric, starting with the prosperity gospel, a philosophy that equates material wealth with divine blessing, which was popularized by Norman Vincent Peale. Trump's initial campaign leveraged this idea, promising voters a share in his success. However, by 2020, the narrative had darkened, with Trump adopting conspiracy theories and a rhetoric filled with violence and fear, reflecting a shift towards a more sinister form of populism.

10:10

🔮 The Role of Conspiracy Theories and Gnosticism in Trump's Rhetoric

The discussion highlights how Trump's rhetoric has incorporated elements of conspiracy theories and Gnosticism, with a focus on secret knowledge and an elect group with special insights. This narrative has been used to mobilize support by creating a sense of an enemy within, fostering a community bound by shared fears and a belief in hidden truths.

15:16

🎭 The Theatrical Aspect of Trump's Political Performance

The script explores the theatrical nature of Trump's political performances, including his use of skits and phone call enactments to connect with his audience. These performances, while dismissed by some as mere theater, are argued to be a significant part of his political strategy, creating an emotional bond with his supporters and reinforcing his message.

20:18

🗡 The Metaphorical Use of Violence in Trump's Narratives

This section examines Trump's use of violent metaphors, such as the 'snake' poem and the story of General Pershing, to convey his stance on immigration and to incite fervor among his followers. The narratives are designed to elicit an emotional response and to position Trump as a strong leader capable of taking drastic measures.

25:21

👥 The Cult of Personality and the Collective Meaning-Making

The conversation touches on the cult of personality surrounding Trump and how his followers engage in a collective meaning-making process, interpreting his words and actions as part of a larger truth. This dynamic is likened to the relationship between a megachurch preacher and their congregation, where the leader's words are sacralized and unquestioned.

30:25

🕊️ The Transformation of Martyrs in the Trump Movement

The script discusses the transformation of individuals like Ashli Babbitt into martyrs for the Trump movement, with her death on January 6th being used to galvanize support and initiate followers into a campaign of violence. The martyr narrative is a key element in the movement's progression towards extremism.

35:30

🇺🇸 The New Face of Fascism in America

This part of the script addresses the changing face of fascism in America, noting that it does not adhere to traditional racial purity ideologies but instead focuses on a sense of white victimization. The discussion explores how this new form of fascism is inclusive of non-white supporters as long as they embrace the ideology of victimhood.

40:37

🔫 The Growing Threat of Militias and Paramilitary Groups

The conversation highlights the rise of militias and paramilitary groups, which, while not yet actively engaging in large-scale conflict, represent a simmering threat of violence. The script suggests that the current situation may be a slow burn leading to a potential civil war, with these groups playing a significant role.

45:42

🚔 The Infiltration of Christian Fascism in Institutions

The script discusses the infiltration of Christian fascist ideologies within institutions such as the military and law enforcement. It raises concerns about the potential impact on these institutions and the broader implications for society, especially if these groups gain more influence and power.

🌐 The Global Rise of Fascism and the Absence of Countervailing Forces

The final part of the script reflects on the global rise of fascism and the lack of a strong countervailing force to resist it. It emphasizes the importance of continued struggle and resistance, regardless of the odds, and the need to remember and learn from the past.

Mindmap

Keywords

💡Christian nationalism

Christian nationalism is the belief that one's country is defined by its Christian identity and that its political and social issues should be influenced by this belief. In the video, this concept is linked to extreme ideologies and the rise of a 'Christianized fascist state,' illustrating the concern over the intertwining of religious fervor with political power.

💡Fascism

Fascism is a far-right political ideology characterized by dictatorial power, strong nationalism, and often a belief in racial superiority. The video discusses the emergence of a 'fascist movement' coalesced around the Trump-led Republican Party, highlighting the concern over the adoption of fascistic ideologies in contemporary American politics.

💡Conspiracy theories

Conspiracy theories refer to explanations of events that suggest a secret, often sinister, plot by powerful groups or individuals. The script mentions 'bizarre conspiracy theories' embraced by the movement, indicating how such theories can fuel distrust and fear, and potentially contribute to radicalization.

💡Trumpism

Trumpism encompasses the political ideology and policies advocated by former U.S. President Donald Trump and his supporters. The video uses this term to describe a political movement characterized by strongman leadership, nationalist sentiment, and a disregard for traditional democratic norms, as seen in the 'theatrical' performances and rhetoric of Trump rallies.

💡MAGA (Make America Great Again)

MAGA is a slogan used by Donald Trump during his presidential campaigns, reflecting a desire to return to an idealized past. The script discusses the evolution of Trump's slogan from 'You're going to win so much you get tired of winning' to the persistent use of MAGA, symbolizing a political strategy to maintain a base of fervent supporters.

💡Prosperity Gospel

The Prosperity Gospel is a religious belief that financial blessings are rewards for faith and generosity. The video connects this concept to Trump's appeal to his followers, suggesting that his promises of wealth and success are a form of religious rhetoric, with the implication that supporting Trump will bring about material prosperity.

💡Gnosticism

Gnosticism refers to a collection of ancient religious ideas suggesting that salvation comes through secret knowledge. The script uses this term to draw parallels between ancient religious heresies and the modern belief in secret knowledge propagated by Trump, suggesting a connection between mystical beliefs and political ideology.

💡Martyrs

Martyrs are individuals who are venerated for having suffered or died for their beliefs. The video discusses the creation of martyrs in the context of the January 6th Capitol insurrection, highlighting how figures like Ashli Babbitt are used to galvanize support and initiate followers into a narrative of victimhood and resistance.

💡Slow Civil War

A 'Slow Civil War' as mentioned in the video, refers to a gradual and insidious conflict that is not a traditional war but is characterized by increasing tension, violence, and division within a society. The script uses this term to describe the current state of American society, suggesting a prolonged and deepening conflict fueled by ideological differences.

💡White supremacy

White supremacy is the belief in the inherent superiority of the white race and its right to dominate society. The video discusses the adaptation of this concept in the new fascism, noting that it has evolved to be more inclusive in appearance while still promoting a narrative of white victimization and maintaining power dynamics.

💡Radical politics

Radical politics refers to political views and actions that seek to fundamentally change the existing social order. The script calls for the embrace of 'radical politics' as a necessary response to the rise of fascism, emphasizing the need for active and transformative measures to counteract the threats to democracy.

Highlights

Jeff Sharlet's two-decade exploration of the intersection between extreme Christian nationalism and the far right.

The concept of a 'Christianized fascist state' emerging from the Trump-led Republican Party.

The importance of taking Christian fascists seriously as an existential threat to democracy.

The evolution from Trump's first campaign influenced by the Prosperity Gospel to a darker narrative in his second campaign.

Trump's appeal to the prosperity gospel and its parallels to megachurch preachers' tactics.

The shift in Trump's rhetoric from conspiracy theories to a more personal belief in them.

The role of martyrs in Trumpism and the transformation of Ashli Babbitt into a martyr figure.

Elias Canetti's insights from 'Crowds and Power' on the significance of martyrs in initiating followers into campaigns of violence.

The comparison between Trump's rallies and performances in megachurches, highlighting the cult of personality.

The discussion on the蛇and bullet skit performed by Trump, reflecting ecstatic, lustful violence.

The idea of a 'slow civil war' as an institutionalization of violence in the United States.

The potential for the Christian right to influence the military and law enforcement through chaplaincy and recruitment.

The importance of recognizing the current moment as a form of modern Gnosticism within the fascist movement.

The potential dangers of fragmentation within the military due to the influence of Christian right organizations.

The final chapter's title, 'The Good Fight Is The One You Lose', emphasizing the importance of struggle over victory.

The significance of remembering past radical artists and activists as a source of inspiration and resilience.

Transcripts

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Related Tags

Christian Nationalism Fascism Trumpism American Democracy Jeff Sharlet Civil War Political Analysis Social Commentary Extremism Radical Movements