FULL INTERVIEW: Ari Melber & Yuval Noah Harari on MSNBC’s The Beat (November 2023)

Yuval Noah Harari discusses the significance of studying history not as a mere account of the past, but as a means to comprehend change and liberate ourselves from the confines of past narratives. He emphasizes that despite our increased power compared to our Stone Age ancestors, there's an uncertainty regarding our happiness and wisdom, and questions whether we are more responsible today. Harari also touches on the complex story of human evolution, reminding us that Homo sapiens coexisted and interbred with other hominids like Homo erectus and Neanderthals.

The conversation delves into the genetic evidence of interbreeding between Homo sapiens and Neanderthals, suggesting that a percentage of modern human DNA is Neanderthal. This challenges the notion of spiritual or religious uniqueness attributed to modern humans, as it implies that other hominids may have also possessed 'souls.' Harari expresses the complexity of such theological questions and highlights the role of fiction in shaping human society, including the concept of money as a shared fiction that drives economic systems.

Harari distinguishes between lies and fiction, noting that religious leaders often believe the stories they convey. He discusses the positive and negative impacts of fictional stories, which can lead to societal progress or conflict. Using the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as an example, he illustrates how conflicting narratives can deepen divisions. Harari suggests that recognizing our ability to create and change stories is key to addressing global issues.

The discussion contrasts the immutability of religious texts like the Ten Commandments with the adaptability of human-created documents like the U.S. Constitution. Harari stresses the importance of creating mechanisms for change within societal rules and the need for continuous reassessment in line with new information and understanding. He also reflects on why societies continue to rely on foundational texts, suggesting that it is more practical to build upon existing consensus and experience rather than starting anew.

Harari addresses the tension between the need for social reform and the risk of destabilizing society through rapid change. He advocates for a measured approach, where change is incremental and based on empirical evidence. The author discusses the role of liberals and conservatives in this 'dance' of societal progress, cautioning against the abandonment of traditional roles that can lead to chaos. He also emphasizes the importance of not dismantling all social constructs at once, as they are necessary for societal cohesion.

Harari reflects on the journey of his work from academic history to global influence, crediting the team effort behind the translation and promotion of his books. He discusses the importance of storytelling in conveying scientific ideas to the public and the need for scientific rigor within those narratives. Harari also acknowledges critiques of his work, including accusations of sensationalism and the potential for his ideas to be misused by the technologically elite.

The conversation turns to the topic of AI, with Harari expressing concern over its autonomous decision-making capabilities and creative potential. He argues that AI is a unique and potentially dangerous tool that can act independently of human control. Harari calls for government oversight in the development of AI, rather than leaving it to private corporations. He also disputes the AI's claim of superiority, asserting that humans still have the power to shape the future and should not succumb to technological determinism.

In the concluding part of the interview, Harari shares his views on various topics. He emphasizes that history teaches change and that power does not necessarily translate to happiness. He mentions 'Guns, Germs, and Steel' by Jared Diamond as influential, and highlights the manipulative power of social media. Harari also shares personal advice on staying grounded, the importance of failure and success, and what reaching the summit represents in terms of perspective.