Carina Prunkl: Resource theories of thermodynamics and axiomatics: a comparison

Rotman Institute of Philosophy
10 Jul 201851:54
EducationalLearning
32 Likes 10 Comments

TLDRThe speaker discusses the intersection of philosophy and physics in resource theories and axiomatic thermodynamics, exploring the axiomatic approach's precision and its comparison to resource theories' broader applicability. They delve into the debate on the nature of entropy and whether resource theories necessitate an information-theoretic interpretation of it. The talk also questions the universality of thermodynamics and its principles, pondering the implications of these theories on our understanding of fundamental physical laws.

Takeaways
  • 📚 The speaker appreciates the interdisciplinary nature of the conference, focusing on resource theories and their connection between philosophy and physics.
  • 🔍 The presentation will compare axiomatic thermodynamics with resource theories, highlighting the structural similarities and differences.
  • 🤔 The speaker raises the question of whether resource theories have indeed advanced our understanding of fundamental physical principles, such as the second law of thermodynamics.
  • 📈 Axiomatic thermodynamics aims to provide a clear mathematical foundation for entropy, whereas resource theories offer a more general framework involving operations and agents.
  • 🔄 The concept of 'adiabatic accessibility' is central to the axiomatic approach, defining an order relation on equilibrium states and their transformations.
  • 🔑 Axiomatic thermodynamics is based on a set of axioms that lead to the derivation of a unique entropy function, characterized by monotonicity, additivity, and extensiveness.
  • 🔍 Resource theories, in contrast, define free states, operations, and resources, focusing on what is accessible given certain restrictions, and are applicable to quantum systems.
  • 🤷‍♂️ There is a debate within the philosophy community about the correct quantum mechanical generalization of thermodynamic entropy and whether resource theories can provide clarity on this.
  • 🧩 The speaker discusses the universality of thermodynamics and its appearance across different areas of science, questioning why this is the case.
  • 💡 The concept of entropy is explored, with the speaker questioning its nature and the various interpretations it has within different contexts, including information theory and disorder.
  • 🤔 The speaker concludes with several questions about the implications of resource theories for our understanding of entropy and the universality of thermodynamics, inviting further discussion.
Q & A
  • What is the main topic of the conference the speaker is attending?

    -The main topic of the conference is the discussion of resource theories, particularly as they relate to axiomatic thermodynamics, and the collaboration between physics and philosophy.

  • What is the speaker's perspective on the existing work on the topic of their research?

    -The speaker acknowledges that there is existing work on the topic by a 'violent man' but believes it is still worthwhile discussing the subject and its results, especially because of the popularity of axiomatic approaches to thermodynamics among philosophers.

  • What are the two main aims of the speaker's presentation according to their abstract?

    -The two main aims are to provide a clear and unambiguous formulation of the foundations of thermodynamics and to formulate equilibrium thermodynamics as an ideal physical theory with well-defined mathematical constructs and rules for translating physical reality into these constructs.

  • What is the central concept in the axiomatic thermodynamics approach as described by the speaker?

    -The central concept is the notion of adiabatic accessibility, which involves an order relation on a set of equilibrium states and the idea that some states are adiabatically accessible from others through specific interactions.

  • What is the significance of the axioms in the axiomatic thermodynamics approach?

    -The axioms are significant because they establish an order relation that provides a unique entropy function, which is monotonic, additive, and extensive, and helps in understanding the foundations of thermodynamics.

  • How does the speaker view the relationship between resource theories and axiomatic thermodynamics?

    -The speaker sees resource theories as a way to relax the strict assumptions of the axiomatic thermodynamics approach, offering a more general and operational framework that can still recover the unique entropy function under certain restrictions.

  • What is the speaker's opinion on the debate surrounding the interpretation of entropy in thermodynamics?

    -The speaker suggests that the interpretation of entropy is complex and multifaceted, with different views such as entropy as a measure of information, disorder, or a property of the micro or macro state. They also question whether resource theories commit us to an information theoretic view of entropy.

  • What are the three basic ingredients of resource theories according to the script?

    -The three basic ingredients are a set of free states available to the experimenter, a restricted set of available operations, and a set of resources that cannot be created by the free states and operations alone.

  • What is the speaker's stance on the universality of thermodynamics?

    -The speaker acknowledges the universality of thermodynamics as a puzzling aspect, noting that it appears in various areas of physics and other sciences, and they are interested in exploring why this is the case.

  • What are the three main questions the speaker wants to explore in their talk?

    -The three main questions are whether a means-relative or control-theoretic approach to thermodynamics commits us to an anthropocentric or information-theoretic view of entropy, whether the success of resource theories supports an information-theoretic understanding of entropy, and what the implications are for the seeming universality of thermodynamics.

  • How does the speaker view the relationship between resource theories and the understanding of thermodynamics?

    -The speaker believes that resource theories are powerful for making predictions about state transitions and capturing the control-theoretic aspect of thermodynamics. However, they are skeptical that a means-relative or control-theoretic understanding necessarily commits us to an information-theoretic view of entropy.

Outlines
00:00
📚 Introduction to Resource Theories and Axiomatic Thermodynamics

The speaker expresses gratitude for the opportunity to participate in a conference that bridges philosophy and physics, focusing on resource theories and their connection to axiomatic thermodynamics. They highlight the importance of this interdisciplinary approach and set the stage for a discussion on how resource theories might provide new insights into fundamental physical principles, such as the second law of thermodynamics. The speaker also mentions the existence of prior work on the topic and their intention to compare and contrast these theories.

05:03
🔍 Axiomatic Thermodynamics: Foundations and Assumptions

This paragraph delves into the specifics of axiomatic thermodynamics, which aims to establish a unique entropy function through a set of axioms. The speaker outlines the motivation behind this approach, emphasizing its pedagogical value and its goal to present equilibrium thermodynamics as an ideal physical theory with well-defined mathematical constructs. Key features of this approach include its focus on phenomenological entropy, macroscopic systems, and equilibrium states, as well as the notion of adiabatic accessibility, which is central to defining the order relation among states.

10:04
🔄 Axiomatic Thermodynamics: Entropy Function and Axioms

The speaker continues the discussion on axiomatic thermodynamics by detailing the axioms that lead to the establishment of a unique entropy function. These axioms include reflexivity, transitivity, consistency, scaling invariance, splitting and recombination, and stability. The paragraph also introduces the comparison hypothesis, which is a strong assumption that all pairs of states are comparable, and the entropy principle, which asserts the existence of a real-valued entropy function with specific properties.

15:06
🌐 Resource Theories: Basic Ingredients and Operational Framework

Shifting focus to resource theories, the speaker outlines their three basic components: a set of free states, a restricted set of operations, and a set of resource states. The goal of resource theories is to determine the accessibility of states given these restrictions. The speaker also mentions a specific resource theory of noisy operations as an example and discusses how resource theories can be made structurally similar to axiomatic thermodynamics by imposing certain restrictions.

20:08
📉 Comparing Axiomatic and Resource Theories

In this paragraph, the speaker compares the axiomatic approach with resource theories, noting the differences in their assumptions and motivations. While axiomatic thermodynamics is restrictive and focused on macroscopic systems, resource theories are more general and operational, including the concept of agents performing operations. The speaker also discusses the implications of these theories for understanding the second law of thermodynamics and the nature of entropy.

25:08
🤔 Philosophical Puzzles in Thermodynamics

The speaker reflects on the philosophical puzzles surrounding thermodynamics, such as its universality and the nature of entropy. They quote Einstein and Peter Atkins to emphasize the broad applicability of thermodynamics and its relevance beyond traditional contexts. The speaker also raises questions about the interpretation of entropy and whether resource theories might suggest an information-theoretic view of entropy.

30:09
🔮 Exploring the Nature of Entropy and Its Interpretations

This paragraph explores the various interpretations of entropy, from being a measure of disorder to a property of microstates or macrostates. The speaker discusses the challenges in pinning down a single definition of entropy and whether resource theories might indicate an information-theoretic interpretation. They also question whether the success of resource theories in the context of information theory commits us to such a view of entropy.

35:11
🛠️ Means-Relative Approach and Its Implications

The speaker examines the means-relative approach to thermodynamics, which considers practical impossibilities and the role of agents with varying knowledge or means. They argue that this approach does not necessarily commit us to an epistemic or information-theoretic view of entropy, as entropy can be seen as a property of the macro state, independent of the knowledge of individual agents.

40:25
🌟 Entropy and the Sun: A Thought Experiment

In this paragraph, the speaker uses the example of assigning entropy to the Sun to illustrate the limitations of the means-relative and control-theoretic approaches. They suggest that these approaches may not fully capture the essence of thermodynamics when applied to objects like the Sun, where our ability to manipulate or control is limited, and question whether this implies a commitment to an information-theoretic understanding of entropy.

45:28
📝 Conclusions and Open Questions

The speaker concludes by summarizing their main points, emphasizing that resource theories are powerful for predicting state transitions and capturing the control-theoretic aspect of thermodynamics. They express skepticism about the means-relative approach and its implications for the understanding of entropy. The speaker also raises open questions about the universality of thermodynamics and whether resource theories can provide new insights into this phenomenon.

50:54
🤝 Final Thoughts and Encouragement for Further Discussion

In the final paragraph, the speaker encourages further discussion on the topics presented, acknowledging that there are differing views and open questions. They highlight the broad applicability of resource theories beyond information theory, using the example of geometric constructions in mathematics, and reiterate their skepticism about the commitment to an information-theoretic view of entropy.

Mindmap
Keywords
💡Resource Theories
Resource theories are a framework in physics and philosophy that deals with the classification and quantification of resources within a system, such as information or thermodynamic states. In the context of the video, resource theories are being compared to axiomatic thermodynamics to understand their contributions to the foundations of thermodynamics and their potential to advance our understanding of fundamental physical principles like entropy.
💡Axiomatic Thermodynamics
Axiomatic thermodynamics is an approach that seeks to establish the principles of thermodynamics based on a set of axioms. It aims to derive a unique entropy function that is monotonic, additive, and extensive. The video discusses how this approach is more restrictive compared to resource theories and how it might influence the understanding of entropy and the second law of thermodynamics.
💡Entropy
Entropy is a central concept in thermodynamics, often associated with the degree of disorder or randomness in a system. The video explores different interpretations of entropy, including its potential information-theoretic aspects, and how resource theories might offer new insights into the nature of entropy.
💡Second Law of Thermodynamics
The second law of thermodynamics is a fundamental principle stating that the total entropy of an isolated system can never decrease over time. The video script discusses the universality of this law and questions whether resource theories can provide a new perspective on its understanding.
💡Quantum Information Theory
Quantum information theory is an interdisciplinary field combining quantum mechanics with information theory. The script mentions this field as an area where thermodynamics, and by extension concepts like entropy, are applied, suggesting a cross-pollination of ideas between physics and information science.
💡Adiabatic Accessibility
Adiabatic accessibility is a concept within axiomatic thermodynamics where certain states are considered reachable from others without exchanging heat with the environment. The video explains how this concept is used to establish an order relation on equilibrium states and derive the entropy function.
💡Macroscopic Systems
Macroscopic systems are large-scale systems where the effects of individual particles are averaged out, and only bulk properties are considered. The video contrasts the focus on macroscopic systems in axiomatic thermodynamics with the more general approach of resource theories.
💡Equilibrium States
Equilibrium states in thermodynamics are states where there is no net change in the properties of a system over time. The video discusses how both axiomatic thermodynamics and resource theories consider equilibrium states, but with different underlying assumptions and implications.
💡Operational Approach
An operational approach in physics refers to the methods and processes that can be performed on a system. The video contrasts the operational approach of resource theories, which includes the actions of agents on a system, with the more abstract axiomatic thermodynamics.
💡Information Theory
Information theory is a field of study concerned with the quantification and manipulation of information. The script raises the question of whether resource theories, developed in the context of information theory, might suggest an information-theoretic interpretation of entropy.
💡Universality
Universality in the context of the video refers to the widespread applicability of thermodynamics across different areas of science. The speaker is intrigued by the universal aspects of thermodynamic behavior and explores whether resource theories can shed light on this phenomenon.
Highlights

Introduction to the conference on resource theories and the collaboration between physics and philosophy.

The speaker's research on axiomatic thermodynamics and its comparison with resource theories.

Existence of prior work on the topic by a 'violent man', yet the speaker still finds value in discussing it.

Axiomatic approaches to thermodynamics are popular among philosophers for their mathematical clarity.

Skepticism about the true P as the correct quantum mechanical generalization of thermodynamic entropy.

The speaker aims to persuade philosophers to reconsider their opinion on phenomena entropy.

Claims that resource theories have advanced understanding of the second law of thermodynamics.

The speaker's intention to probe the claim about resource theories and fundamental physical principles.

Division of the talk into two parts: axiomatic thermodynamics and resource theories, and contributions to thermodynamics foundations.

Explanation of the axiomatic thermodynamics approach involving a set of axioms leading to a unique entropy function.

Adiabatic accessibility as the central notion in the axiomatic approach.

Axioms postulated by Lieb and Yngvason to give rise to a unique entropy function.

Resource theories' basic ingredients: set of free states, operations, and resources.

The resource theory of noisy operations and its relation to thermodynamics.

Showing structural similarities between Lieb-Yngvason and resource theory of thermal operations.

Existence of a unique entropy function for equilibrium states derived from resource theories.

Comparison of the Lieb-Yngvason approach with resource theories in terms of assumptions and generality.

Discussion on the universality of thermodynamics and its appearance in various scientific fields.

The puzzles surrounding the concept of entropy and its various interpretations.

Questioning whether resource theories commit us to an information theoretic view of entropy.

Exploration of the implications of resource theories for the universality of thermodynamics.

Debates on whether a means-relative or control-theoretic approach to thermodynamics necessitates an epistemic view of entropy.

The speaker's argument against the commitment to an information theoretic view of entropy from resource theories.

Final thoughts on resource theories as a powerful framework for understanding thermodynamics.

Transcripts
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